Hi Readers! We are so happy to be reading this Mr. Darcy’s Noble Connections together with you!
Today is a discussion of CHAPTERS 10-14, so if you know anything that happens beyond those chapters, we ask that you don’t mention it here! NO spoilers, please!
Participating in today’s discussion earns you an entry towards our Group Read Giveaway (you can earn 7 entries in all!)
Without further ado, here are some questions Team Austenesuqe and Abigail Reynolds would like to ask you.
You can answer any or all of them if you like, please just be sure to specify, with numbers, which question(s) you are answering in the comment section.
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Question 1: OH MY! So much going on in these chapters!!! What are your first thoughts after reading chapters 10-14?
Question 2: What do you think will happen next? Do you think Lord Bentham will allow Paxton to marry Eleanor? Is the Dowager Marchioness going to make another appearance, and if so, why?
Question 3: There have been lots of allusions, quotes, and parallels to Shakespearean comedies so far. Can you spot them? What allusions, quotes, and parallels have you discovered so far?
Question 4: Poor Darcy and Elizabeth! Poor Paxton and Eleanor! Our mismatched couples have been through a grueling couple of days! What is your opinion of their actions? Was Paxton too cruel? Eleanor too compliant? Do you think Darcy had any other options?
Question 5: One aspect of marriage with Eleanor that Darcy views with decided displeasure is being tied closer to her family. It almost seems like he’d willingly welcome the Bennets as family before the Carlisles (which are distant relations!) What do you think he views as their greatest offense? And which member of the family do you think he views with the greatest abhorrence?
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We look forward to continuing this discussion with you tomorrow with CHAPTERS 15-epilogue.
*You are invited to CHAT LIVE with ABIGAIL REYNOLDS HERE Sunday, June 30th @ 8:00 p.m. EST!
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2) I think the Dowager has to make another appearance; otherwise, it would not have been beneficial to the plot to introduce her to begin with! Looking forward to that happening! 🙂 I think she is going to raise hell and put Lady B in her place!
Whether or not Lord B will allow Paxton to marry Eleanor or not, they will get married—it’s a HEA, after all. It would be in Lord B’s best interest to support the marriage though, but who knows with his wife running the show.
3) OH! This has been one of the best parts in this story! A Midsummer Night’s Dream is my favorite Shakespeare play. To see so many parallels drawn in Abigail’s book makes it all the more enjoyable. 🙂 The whole lovers mix-up was quite amusing. I know some people might have thought this part a bit angsty. I might be in the minority here, but I found a bit of comic relief in this. Darcy in love with Lizzy but betrothed to Eleanor; Paxton in love with Eleanor but putting on the pretense of liking Lizzy to make Eleanor jealous, Lizzy thinking she has been played the fool, and Charming Charlie proposing to Lizzy. Totally Shakespeare!
Now, before you think me completely insensitive, my heart did break for Lizzy, thinking Darcy was just toying with her and feeling betrayed by her best friend. I did feel sorry for Lizzy here—and Darcy too—being forced into an unwanted marriage. It was knowing how it would end and thinking about AMND that made me enjoy the scene.
The entire time I was reading last night’s reading, all I could think was “Lord what fools these mortals be.”
4) I do not think Darcy had another option at that point. He did what he had to do to protect his sister, while at the same time hoping for some way out of the unwanted engagement.
5) I think Darcy has serious issues with Lord B, owing to what happened to Edward. And we know he does not think highly of Charles, and even less of him once he takes an interest in Lizzy—whether it is for the bet or genuine. And who in their right mind can like the B?…Lady B that is. 😉
LOL! Yes I thought of the same AMND quote too while reading, Jakki!
Chapters #10-14 Jen Red
#1. Well in my opinion, at the beginning of these chapters, Lady Eleanor is still self-centered and spoiled. Too bad she was not brave enough to take Elizabeth’s advice in chapter ten and make her own decision regarding whom she would marry. However, I find the entire family despicable when they force a marriage upon Darcy and Lady Eleanor, suggesting a compromise and threaten blackmail against Darcy and Georgiana. And seeing how childish and selfish she is over Paxton, I’m not surprised that she supported the scheme. What a tangled web of lies. Thankfully she saw the light of day when Lizzy told her the truth of it all.
#2. What will happen next? I’m not sure how Lord Bentham will take it all, even if the Dowager does re-appear and support Eleanor. There is still a lot of truth to be uncovered.
#3. Allusions, quotes etc…. of course we have “Juliet” which Charles has referred to when speaking with Lizzy. But I actually really liked the one at dinner in chapter ten where she said, Which do you suppose has greater value – thirty pieces of silver or two hundred guineas?” Then after the announcement of the engagements: Shakespeare said it best: Men were deceivers ever. And how true it seems to be in this story. “She had deceived herself about Darcy, just as she had deceived herself about Wickham and Lord Charles. Never again would she trust any judgment she made about men!” Poor, poor Lizzy!
#4. Did Darcy have other options? Not if it meant that Lord Charles would ruin Georgiana’s reputation. He is too honorable for that. And please, not a duel. My blue couch couldn’t take it. Is Eleanor too compliant? At that point in the story, yes, because of her selfishness, Eleanor is too compliant and I have no sympathy for her. As Paxton says, she values “status over affection.”
#5. Who is the worst offender? I think that the old man is the worst. It was because of him that Darcy’s friend, Edward was exiled. It is because of him that Eleanor was being forced to marry someone she didn’t love. It is because of him that Charles’s behavior is tolerated and the blackmail is sanctioned. What a family. They are not very noble in my opinion. ~Jen Red~
You brought up many good points, Jen. I enjoyed Lizzy’s comment at dinner about the 30 pieces of silver or 200 guineas. I’m surprised Charles didn’t choke on his food. 😉
Yes poor Lizzy has had too many deceiving men play with her heart!!
I have to agree with you about Eleanor, if she wasn’t thinking of herself right now, she might have picked up on how Darcy and Elizabeth were feeling.
1) I remember at first thinking ‘Noooooooooo!’ at the point where poor Darcy is forced to propose! Poor Lizzy, and poor Darcy too! One thing that struck me is that Lord Charles clearly was the driving force in forcing Darcy to propose and I am not sure why. Did he do it for his sister, to give her a more palatable husband, or did he do it to spite his stepmother, or did he do it for himself because he sees something between Lizzy and Darcy? I can’t remember now whether he knows about his sister and Paxton but he must know there is nothing between her and Darcy. And to be so unscrupulous to hold Darcy’s sister’s reputation hostage over it is just horrid. I really don’t like him one bit. And what on earth is going on with the older brother, he’s actually staying with Darcy, or did I get that wrong?
2) I don’t think Lord Bentham would consider allowing Lady E to marry Paxton at this point, but he may have to change his tune once he finds that she has freed Darcy from the engagement. She may be selfish, but it seems as though she at least is a good friend and wouldn’t take Lizzy’s husband away from her. I think the Dowager will step in again because otherwise there is not much point her being in the story 🙂
3) Well I am not good on Shakespeare, having only studied 3 plays in school and seen the Howard Keel version of Taming of the Shrew. Luckily Abigail has signposted some of the references so even the culturally challenged such as myself can notice them! However, I would have got the rue reference to Hamlet, there is obviously the Juliet thing from yucky Lord C. Lizzy also referred early on to a play with mismatched partners but I am not familiar with it.
4) I didn’t think Paxton was cruel actually. She had made her choice and that is what the relationship between them was going to be in the future then what else could she expect at dinner. If anything Eleanor was cruel, agreeing to be married to his close friend was really quite vindictive of her. And then his flirtation with Lizzy if anything was a kindness to her, as it allowed her to vent her feelings a bit. I felt that Darcy was put in a very difficult situation and he didn’t have a lot of choice. The only thing he could perhaps have done is deny that it was him and refuse to propose, as presumably Georgiana had never been left with Lord C for him to have done anything with her. It would have been more risky of course. I guess another option would have been to say he was already engaged but that it hadn’t been announced. Could have plumped for Anne De Bourgh, or taken a risk and gone for Lizzy.
5) I would say that of them all, he probably looks down on Lord B the most, as he has abandoned his son and Darcy clearly feels that he is innocent and shouldn’t have been treated in such a way. Next, Lord C for his rakish ways, and then the evil stepmother.
I forgot to say, having answered these questions means that I can now finish the book, hooray!!!!
She is an evil stepmother, isn’t she? Yay! I hope you enjoy the rest of the book, Ceri! I just finished it. 🙂
Oh that would have been interesting if Darcy claimed he was already engaged! Definitely risky though! Those Benthams were ruthless!
Question 1: Goodness, soo much happening! Exact words!
Question 2: I sure hope that Lord Bentham will allow them to marry. I can´t imagine Darcy marrying Lady Eleonor, so there HAS to be a way of her marrying Paxton, so that Darcy can marry Lizzy!
Question 3: One thing springing to mind is Lord Charles “my Juliet”ing Lizzy constantly. It could be a sweet thing coming from Darcy, but not Lord Charles :D.
Question 4: I think Darcy had no other option then to offer for Lady Eleanor. It´s very Darcy-like of him to be so protective of his sister – one thing we dearly love about him. I sooo feel for Lizzy. She didn´t expect any of this and then to have someone so dear to her like Lady Eleanor being engaged to her love . And Lady Eleanor has no doubt no idea what she has done to poor Lizzy by excepting Darcy. I found her a bit cruel to Paxton, but then I don´t understand the ways of the ton – I could never imagine marrying someone and then establishing someone else as my lover, cause my husband wouldn´t care and that would just be the way everyone does it. Unthinkable. So that´s why I, like most of us I dare say, sided with Paxton and found her a bit cruel, not Paxton. He is a man with a very broken heart.
Question 5: I´d say he dislikes Lady Bentham the most, since she seems to be such a false creature. Ad I´d say Lord Bentham too, and since Lord Charles is paying Lizzy so much attention… well, the whole family, except the friend in exile and the Dowager?!
Katrina, I kept thinking, “if Lizzy would have only told Eleanor about Darcy, then she would not have agreed to the engagement.” While I liked the whole Juliet thing, you are correct. It would have been much better coming from Darcy. 🙂
I wonder what Eleanor would have thought about having an affair if Darcy was her husband. She didn’t seem to think it was a bad idea when she was marrying Deyncourt…but if she was marrying Darcy would she still think it was okay? Especially since he wouldn’t be deceived about it?
Thank you for sharing your insights with us Katrin! 🙂
First thought – WTF?!?
The immediacy of the engagement between Eleanor and Darcy was the one part of the book that I questioned. We live in an era of Facebook, Twitter, etc It was a neighbor tweeting who broke the story of Osama Bin Ladin’s death. Letters of such news take at least a week to reach the intended party. Darcy had no problem convincing Elizabeth to take a certain path to delay events with her new suitor (pardon me – I haven’t reread the chapters because of time, and I don’t want to spoil anything), I have a hard time believing that he couldn’t have come up with the same scheme when he was forced to become engaged to Eleanor.
Speaking of Eleanor, I cannot believe how vapid she is to not have noticed Darcy/Elizabeth’s growing attachment. To me, it was the final straw in the Lady Mary bonnet for me. Her self-centered nature is not making me root for her and Paxton at this point in the novel. He could do a lot better. If this story was posted on a fanfiction board, I’d be rooting for a Paxton/Elizabeth hook up. Thank goodness the story is in Abigail’s hands. Eleanor is going to need a character reformation in order for me to care about her again!
I can understand your concern about the speed of Eleanor and Darcy’s engagement, but it wasn’t immediate. Darcy refused to allow it to be officially announced because he said he wanted to tell his sister himself (but was apparently in no rush to do so). With the engagement not announced officially, he wasn’t legally committed to it, which was why Eleanor could break the engagement without massive repercussions.
LOL! Lady Eleanor better not cross paths with you! I do feel the same way as you about her not knowing the feelings between Darcy and Elizabeth. Especially since she is very close to Lizzie. But she does the right thing the end! I don’t know if I could have lived with her if she didn’t try to save her friend’s chance of happiness!
It’s so interesting reading everyone’s comments!
There are some tough choices in this section. When Eleanor agrees to marry Darcy, she does it with the belief he has asked for her hand. Later she discovers some pressure was applied, but not at first. She doesn’t have any reason to be surprised by his making an offer for her because she’s a fabulous match for him, and by accepting him, she’s effectively handing him a winning lottery ticket. She, on the other hand, faces a life sentence with either Lord Deyncourt or Darcy, and I think it was pretty sensible of her to choose Darcy as being better husband material. 🙂
Tough choices indeed!! Okay…I guess Eleanor isn’t completely culpable. 😉 But since she knew Darcy was fully aware of her feelings towards Paxton, I wonder if she was a little suspicious about his sudden and unexpected offer.
2. Abigail wouldn’t write a book w/o E&D together at the end so there must be a way to fix this. the Dowager must play a role because she has to have a reason for being inthe story.
3. Juliet although I think Charles doesn’t use that name because the Benthams and Bennetts are comparable to the Montagues and the Capulets. He merely wants E to be a romantic heroine. Likewise I don’t see how the story of Hamlet and Ophelia relates to this story. Midsummer Night’s Dream does fit. It is Midsummer’s Eve at the estate when the crisis occurs. Two established couples trade partners and all is well at the end
4, Eleanor is a product of the ton. She has not been raised with the idea of marrying for love and with the concept of “cleaving only unto……” even if she heard it in church. Darcy has had education and opportunites to mix with Paxton, Bingley, etc but he also accepts many of the same principles the first time she talked aobut all she would lose if she married Paxton, I considered her Later E reviewed who she would lose. She would not miss Lady B. The brothrs would probably come back to eleanor, the Dowager would prefer Lizzie. Except for Elizabeth, none of her girl friends are close.
5. The Bentham’s greatest offense is their treatment of Edward. I understand why LadyB wanted him gone but not why Darcy, Edward or Charles didn’t intervene sooner to tell Lord B he had bad info. Even with that problem solved, Lord B is, at best, a tiresome old man focused on the past. Lady B is a vapid, dishonest snob. Charles confuses me. Am I correct that he became a rake because he did not like living at home with Lady B.? Even after discovering that he contributed to a woman’s suicide, he is ready to ruin Georgiana??
Great point, Ruth, about how the education of men and women at the time probably influence their views and morals.
Yes, it does look like Lord Charles is not completely reforming his ways just yet!
Question 1: Stunned! What more can be said. Poor Elizabeth and Paxton!! And Darcy backed into a corner like that was unbelievable!!
Question 2: Darcy will find a way out, he has too! Someone will come to aide, maybe the Dowager.
Question 4: Oh Eleanor, why can’t she just stand up to her father?! Just as Darcy and Elizabeth come to an understanding, oh my goodness! I’m speechless!!
I can’t wait too see how it turns out. I know Darcy and Elizabeth prevail in the end, but will it get there???
LOL! I share your sentiments exactly!! It is a very exciting succession of events!!!
Question 1: I couldn’t believe Darcy was being forced to marry Lady Eleanor and that she would even agree to it! She had to have been very wrapped up in herself to not see what was going on with Lizzy and Darcy. Even Paxton had noticed!
Questions 2: I think it will take more than has happened now to cause him to allow the marriage. I do think the Dowager Marchioness will be around again. She is too neat to not be back!
Question 3: Lord Charles calling Lizzy by Juliet is the most noticeable.
Question 4: I don’t think Darcy had any other options but I do wish he had talked to Lizzy and/or made her listen to him. I don’t think Paxton was too harsh as he was appalled at Lady Eleanor’s suggestion. Lady Eleanor lied and that made me unhappy with her and yes, she too compliant. At this point she doesn’t deserve Paxton or Darcy.
Question 5: I think he views Lord Bentham with the greatest abhorrence. I feel that the big offence was his treatment of Edward, until he allowed Lord Charles to threaten to ruin Georgiana unless Darcy married Lady Eleanor. He already had no use for Lord Bentham and this multiplied those feelings ten-fold. No one threatens Darcy with hurting Georgiana without feeling the wrath of Darcy’s intense dislike.
“The wrath of Darcy’s intense dislike” that sounds terrifying!!! 🙂 I too wish Darcy was able to talk to Elizabeth or Paxton and explain himself, I’m sure it was killing him that he couldn’t!
Thank you so much for participating in today’s discussion, everyone!!! I think my enjoyment of this novel is heightened because of all this fun dissecting and analyzing we are doing together!!
Question 3: I love the allusions and parallels to Shakespeare in this novel. The mismatched lovers thing is very A Midsummers Night Dream. The whole pretending to woo or deceiving a romance when there is in none is many Shakespeare comedies, the backfired plan of switching name cards at dinner felt a little Shakespearean, and Elizabeth quotes Much Ado About Nothing on page 146 when she says “Men were deceivers ever.”
Question 4: I don’t think Darcy had any other choice but to agree to the engagement. But I do think maybe he could have tried harder to explain himself to Elizabeth or Paxton, maybe through a letter? I’m not sure why Lady Eleanor is so worried about being disowned by her family…it seems they show her little love.
Question 5: I think the Bentham’s greatest offense was their reaction and lack of support for their son Edward’s situation. I think the person Darcy most loathes in the Bentham family is Lord Charles. Even more so now that he is paying lots of attention to Elizabeth.
Here are my comments for Thursdays discussion: Jen Red
#15-epilogue Jen Red
#1 Lord Charles: I didn’t really feel sorry for him when he found out about the engagement, it was more on learning that he had taken his brother’s absence badly. That was when he went to London and began ruining his own reputation. I was happy to read that he was given his own estate and was able to enter into a courtship with Lady Holmes.
#2. Lord Charles and Darcy in a duel? Well, what I saw was a lot of pent up jealousy and frustration over Elizabeth. He was finally getting it out of his system. And considering they patched it up in the end, a “boy” fight was perfect.
#3. The Dowager: Actually I was surprised that she did not do more investigation on her own about Edward. She was a very astute woman and knew what kind of man Edward was. I think she was lax in believing what everyone had said. Perhaps she also went along with it because she was not as close to her son with the presence of his new wife.
#4. What I really liked about Edward was his own realization of what it meant to have a title and be a member of the ton. Had he not taken on the façade of a regular guy, he may never have learned that lesson and how people regarded him.
#5. Suspicions: Well, I didn’t realize that Lady Eleanor was the culprit there, but I did not trust or like her one bit. I didn’t like the way she manipulated everyone.
#6. I loved the lighthearted ending after so many trials and deceptions. I liked the lessons that everyone seemed to learn and being a “blue couch” reader, I particularly loved the epidemic of betrothals. Then finishing with Darcy and Lizzy going off to discuss it all in private was certainly my kind of ending. Thanks Abigail for another great story and best of luck with your new publication. Another thanks goes to Meredith for putting up the discussion. Because of my schedule over the next few days, I may not be able to come back for the outtakes or live chat. I’ve enjoyed reading everyone’s comments. ~Jen Red~
Q1: I can’t believe that Darcy has really offered for Lady E. But for the sake of dramatic tension I will have to live with it. I’m sure AR has found a convincing and entertaining way of getting E and D together in the end. Every good story needs a bit of suffering. I wonder how AR comes up with all those complications.
Great line: ”…the only thing you are trying is my patience.”
Q2: Lord B will probably be against the marriage despite the circumstances. He might try to force them to cover everything up. The Dowager will have to make another appearance to make Lord B change his mind.
Q3: Lord C calling E his Juliet (Romeo and Juliet). “Men were deceivers ever” (Much ado about nothing). A Midsummer Night’s Dream.
Q4: Paxton was cruel, but not without reason. He was deeply hurt and had to show Lady E that he would not accept her way of thinking (taking him as a lover when married to Lord D). Lady E was definitely too compliant. I can’t understand that she would stay in a family/house where she is practically tortured. She could have fled to her grandmother. I don’t believe she would condone such a treatment of her granddaughter. D could have tried to postpone his offer for Lady E in order to speak to all involved and find a solution. He could have confronted Lady E about her lies. I don’t think she would have lied to his face.
Q5: The greatest offence would be forcing him to marry Lady E by means of blackmail (threatening to besmirch G’s reputation) and not believing his word that he did not compromise Lady E. I guess he most abhors Lord C, because of his behavior toward E and the threat against his sister. Lady B and Lord B are not far behind on the loathing-scale.
Question 1: I honestly did not really like Lady Eleanor very much and this did not help. I felt that even in an alternate reality where Elizabeth didn’t love Darcy it would seem quite cruel to marry a good friend of the person that loves you. In general though I felt she was kind of undeserving of Paxton’s love and devotion. If she had a loving family she was close to then I could somewhat accept her choice but her choice to not disobey her father’s wishes seemed to be based on unimportant superficial reasons. Perhaps it is because I am comparing her to Elizabeth who is such a strong character. We already know that Elizabeth has no qualms about going against ridiculous familial expect ions (Mr Collins). She isn’t a badly written character.. I just don’t see her as much of a heroine.
Darcy was obviously backed into a corner and had to put his innocent sister’s happiness over his. I had to question why he did not immediately address the situation privately with Lady Eleanor. It was a good twist though. Very Shakespearean.
Question 2: I had already finished the book so I know what happens but at this point I had my guesses and they were fairly close to what happened.
Question 3: My Shakespeare knowledge is pretty weak but I did spot a couple. There is the obvious mismatched couples and the Juliet reference. That was all I can remember catching myself. I did enjoy reading about what other people saw.
Question 4: I do not think Darcy had any other option but to accept the engagement but I do think he could have handled things differently afterwards as I said in Q1. I also have little sympathy for Lady Eleanor. I think Paxton should have given Darcy a better chance to explain himself but otherwise I did not disagree with his actions. I felt most sorry for Elizabeth. Especially when she was in the dark as to why it even happened.
Question 5: Hmm this is a tough one. I think Darcy is most offended by Lord Charles and his rakish behavior, particularly with Lizzy (and the bet). It probably would remind him of Wickham and Georgiana as well. Plus there is the added threat that he made against Georgiana in order to force the engagement. Darcy does also seem particularly upset with Lord B, though towards the end he seemed to shoulder some of the responsibility of Lord B’s actions by not keeping in touch with him (typical Darcy to blame himself).
Great questions!
Shannon
lumee23 at gmail dot com
Question 1: I do not like to speak ill of anyone but I want to give Charles and Lord and Lady Bentham a piece of my mind. So much is going on witgh everyone now and they seem to be causing alot of drama and pain for the main characters.
Question 2: I believe the Dowager Marchioness will make another appearance. I can not think on how she will make appearance but she will be someone to make things the way they should be when it comes to the couples by the end of the story. It will definitely involve her son and granddaughter.
Question 3:
I have not read all of shakespeares works but did notice a few. The mismatched couples (Darcy/Eleanor, Elizabeth/Paxton) all of the misunderstandings etc reminds me of Midsummer’s Night Dream. The Romeo and Juliet references, (especially by Charles.)
Question 4: I can understand why Paxton acted the way he did but at the same time I felt he should have heard Darcy out and nto ignored him too. I felt he ignored both Darcy and Eleanor longer than he should have. I was hoping Eleanor to be more like Elizabeth, to speak her mind more at the same time she felt it was best to be with Darcy rather than someone she did not want to marry and not like too much at all. Darcy had Georgiana to think about and did not want to cause her heartbreak and drama anymore than she had gone through already by George Wickham. He did not want to make things worse for Eleanor either and was hoping things would turn out ok in the end.
Question 5: And which member of the family do you think he views with the greatest abhorrence?
The one I feel he views with greatest abhorrence is Charles. (using Georgiana as bribery, not trustworthy, lying etc)
Patricia Finnegan Patkf2007@hotmail.com
patkf2007 {at} hotmail {dot} com