Hi friends! Come join us in discussing Georgette Heyer’s Black Sheep today! (even if you read it many years ago!)
I’ve recently read Black Sheep for the first time this month (in honor of my Georgette Heyer tradition)! And I thought it would be fun to not only write my usual review (which I will post tomorrow), but also hold a discussion since I know so many of you are Georgette Heyer fans! So here we go!
- You can answer any or all of these questions!
- Or, you can forget the questions and just share what you thought of Black Sheep.
- OR…you can bring up some questions or topics of discussion of your own!
~ Black Sheep Discussion Questions ~
1. Compared to other Georgette Heyer stories, where would you rank Black Sheep? Is it one of your favorites? Is it in your top 5 or 10?
2. What do you think of our hero and heroine in this tale? Are you like me and love that they were both older and more unconventional?
3. What did you enjoy most about Black Sheep? Did you have a favorite scene?
4. There is an emphasis on families in this story and preserving the peace and reputations there within. Abby is so dutiful and considerate of her family that she is willing to sacrifice her happiness to appease/protect them, do you think this is necessary? At her age, do you think there would be such a scandal and that her family would actually disown her?
5. Speaking of families, Miles and Stacy have quite an interesting dynamic between them. Do you think it is odd that they are related yet both don’t want much to do with the other? What do you think of Miles treatment of Stacy?
6. One thing I would love to see for this tale is an epilogue. Especially to tell us what became of the rest of the characters! What do you think should be their fates? (Create your own epilogue if you will!)
I’m so glad you read this book Meredith. It is one of my favourites but then so are most of her others when I’m reading them 🙂
I have many favourite scenes, mostly any with Miles and Abby as I love the rapport between them. I also like his way of dealing with Stacy. (As he’s never had any interaction with him before he obviously has no familial feelings for him and in fact cares a lot more for Abby)
Thank goodness Miles took matters into his own hands in regards to Abby’s conflicting emotions. Love it!
I know what you mean, Glynis! I have so many that I consider my favorites and I think I’ve only read 13!
Yes, his handling of Stacy (especially at the end) was marvelous! I didn’t see it coming. 🙂
And I agree, I’m glad Miles had the determination to do what he though needed to be done! Very manly of him! 😉
I’ve read Black Sheep twice, so that puts in the top ten. (Can’t recall how many times I’ve read The Grand Sophie!) Like you, I enjoy reading about slightly older characters – Bath Tangle and Persuasion come to mind. As for an epilogue, Heyer’s endings seem abrupt these days, but perhaps that was the style at the time she was writing
Ooh! I haven’t read Bath Tangle yet, but I think it is in my TBR pile. 🙂 I will definitely look forward to seeing more heroes and heroines like Miles and Abby!
Very true about the endings. There just seemed so many loose threads – like what will eventually happen to Stacy or if Fanny and Oliver become a match? I really liked Oliver and would have liked to know if he made a successful suit to Fanny.
Black Sheep is in my top five. The top ten shifts around as I continue to read the rest of Heyer that I have yet to read. Every time one of your Heyer reviews comes around I read in the comments that one of hers I haven’t read yet is someone’s very top favorite ever, and I’m embarrassed I haven’t read it yet.
I love this hero and heroine, and the fact that they are older. There’s just as much angst and longing, more so toward the end than for the younger character’s. Although, I adored Oliver’s character and his so honorable devotion to Fanny is so endearing. Sigh.
The family dynamic is rather complicated, but it definitely describes the time in which this book takes place. The smaller but happy family group created when Selina, Abby, and Fanny came to live together makes a really complicated situation for any change to take place. But of course Fanny will eventually be leaving, and soon, because her first London season approaching.
Abby’s marrying Miles (yes, yes, YES!) will create a scandal, but only withing her own family I think. Especially if her older brother insists on keeping the whole thing going, out of pique, pride or whatever. NO Doubt prompted by his wife and his shock (!) at being disobeyed. Selina’s situation seems to be the most complicated to me. You just want to shake her so many times. I don’t recall from the book how long Selina and Abby had established their living arrangement, but I got the idea it had been quite a few years. I feel sorry too, for Selina because being comfortable spinsters together into their old age is one thing and quite a different thing than being left alone into her old age.
I didn’t think poorly of Miles for not caring for his nephew after so many years of being estranged from his own family, except his aunt. He’s a self made man. His nephew is a social sponge. Since I just recently revisited this book via audio, I had forgotten a few details since the previous reading. It occurred to me sometime in the book…why did Miles choose that time to come home from India, and why Bath? It’s revealed late in the story when he has it out with Stacy…that he heard Danescourt was going to rack and ruin, the home he remembered fondly.
I’ve only read a little of Heyer’s history, so I don’t know if there’s an answer to my question. Regarding the epilogue: I have noticed in the past when reading Heyer that her plots are usually tight, even though there are lots of characters, her stories have a nice story arc. And more than a few times I’ve thought ‘how easy it would be to translate into a movie or even television.’ She WAS writing books way into the decades where half-hour situational comedy was popular. Was she influenced by that?
Favorite scene…too many to list except of course the very last scene with Miles and Abby. Least favorite….when Abby’s older brother comes to Bath in a rage and blasts all over her. Talk about raining on someone’s parade. That’s a thunder and lightning hail flood tornado!
So glad to hear you loved this one, Michelle! Yes I do adore Oliver too! I would have loved to have a couple more scenes with him – I love how he faced his quandary of being thought of as a brother, but wanting to give helpful advice.
Yes, I agree. It seems that the Selina-Abby-Fanny grouping wouldn’t be lasting for long anyway. But I’m sure Selina has come to depend on Abby. And since they have lived together longer, it probably is more of an impact for her to longer share a house with her….part of me likes to think that Miles and Abby would have invited her to come live with them. What do you think?
I’m glad Abby ended up not caring for her brother’s feelings and married Miles. His unhappiness and discontent should not rule her life!
Isn’t that great when you reread something and learn new details! So you think the cause of Miles returning was to to visit Danescourt? That makes sense. I was wondering that too. 🙂
That’s a very good question! I know other have said that epilogues are unlikely. But I definitely wished for one in this case, and I’ll be honest – it is mostly because of Oliver and Fanny!
Great choices of favorite and not favorite scenes!!!
I have not read this one. I just finished listening to Cotillion and now downloaded the audible copy with KU of this novel so will listen to it while I walk daily. Seeing all the good comments I am sure I will enjoy it also.
Awesome! Good for you! I hope you enjoyed Cotillion! I thought that was such a fun read!
Oh Sheila, didn’t you just love the unlikely hero Freddy?
I’m a HUGE fan of Georgette Heyer. I’ve read all her books and love them all. Black Sheep is one of my favorites. I too like the older H and h. Miles really appeals to me. Even though he’s supposed to be an outcast he’s a very honorable man and a caring one.
Stacy is a twit and I endorse Miles treatment of him. He’ll never learn if he isn’t brought up to scratch by somebody.
I had to laugh really at Selina, she’s so pathetic. Emotional blackmail is one of the oldest tricks in the book. Her brother is nearly as bad. What a prig!! I’m so happy Abby got away from them all and had a life of her own.
I agree about Miles! Loved how he is so honest about his past, no puffed-up opinion or inflated ego! He is adorably playful which is wonderful to see too!
I’m so glad Stacy was thwarted in the end! Serves him right.
True, you bring up a good point about Selina. I focused on how she was a hypochondriac, but you are right, her actions are self-serving and unkind too.
Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts!
It’s my favorite Heyer (a close second is A Civil Contract). I like the older hero and heroine (although in this context “older” means 40 and 28 respectively). My favorite scene is the once in which Stacy gets his ass handed to him by Mrs Clapham. I also like the one in which Nancy and her companion set him up (and he thinks he’s setting THEM up).
Ooh! I haven’t read A Civil Contract yet, will have to search for that one! 🙂 LOL! Yes, that was an amazingly good twist that I did not see coming! 🙂
Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts!
You haven’t read Civil Contract?? Bump it up to the top of your TBR list!
Oh dear, I wrote quite an essay last night, but it seems to have been lost in the posting. To rephrase the most important thoughts, I, too, like more sensible and mature Heyer heroes/heroines: although the young and foolish ones can be rather entertaining, it’s more difficult to sympathize with their problems. I think Abby is not so much unconventional as intelligent and strong enough not to be a slave to conventions, not to define herself by them. She works very well within the frame of the more sensible society rules – so most people don’t notice her originality, her love of the absurd and her sense of humor. This is where Miles comes into the picture – he sees her as she is and accepts her completely.
My most favourite aspect of the book was Miles’s character: how his “bad boy charm” was tempered with his kindness: he teased Abby but never to the point of hurtfulness. He flouted the rules when it suited him, but understood and accepted Abby’s weakness. My favourite line of his (at the moment) is his answer when Abby refuses his proposal the first time: “I’m trying to decide whether I love you the most when you’re awake upon every suit or when you’re a pea-goose”. When I first read the book, I compared him with the ultimate charming bad guy, Rhett Butler in Gone with the Wind whose actions are sometimes similar but without this kindness and sympathy and acceptance.
As for family obligations, I think in this book they are used many times as a manipulative and false claim. I don’t think family obligations extend to the point the selfish characters in the book use them. Miles has no duty whatsoever to save his nephew from his own debts especially as he has been trying only false and hurtful methods to get money and was never going to curtail his own pleasures and comforts or extend any real effort. Now, had he found Stacy working hard to restore his estate, retrenching in every way possible, it would be cruel of him to buy the estate cheaply and cut Stacy out. In that case, I’d say family obligations might extend to compelling him even to give some help to Stacy (even then, it would not be his duty or obligation, but I’d say the right thing to do).
Similarly, Abby has no obligation to deny herself happiness in marriage to serve her elder spinster sister. Selina’s emotional blackmail is horrifying. In Abby’s favour, she isn’t blinded by obligations only: she is quite able to resist her brother when he threatens her. it is only when obligations are mixed up with the love Abby feels for Selina and Fanny that she becomes confused. To make a comparison: in Jane Austen’s Emma, the claim of Mr. Woodhouse on Emma is much stronger, but even then, Emma’s decision that she could not marry as her father would be unable to cope with the changes is wrong and shows a boundary issue similar to this one. (I think Mr. Knightley’s unusual decision to give up his independent home to solve this problem shows the extreme kindness of his character and my hope is that Emma would learn to build a stronger boundary and prioritize her and Knightley’s needs over her father’s).
Thanks for the opportunity to discuss this book!
Oh I’m so sorry that happened! Thanks so much for coming back and leaving a new comment!
So true about the young hero/heroines being entertaining! That I do enjoy! But you are right, sometimes we can’t sympathize or feel concern for their problems.
Very well said about Abby, I forget what she says exactly, but in her thoughts doesn’t she ponder how what she likes so much about Miles is that he understands her? That is very telling and a very special connection to have.
Yes, Miles character was so well done, just the perfect balance! 🙂
I agree about Stacy, if he was different and doing different, then I do think Miles should help in some way, but because he was doing wrong and hurtful things, it does make sense that his uncle feels no familial obligation.
I like your Emma/Mr. Woodhouse comparison as I thought of them too during Abby’s refusals. I was wondering if Heyer would go the same route with Miles maybe offering to move into their home at Bath or take Selina with them? But perhaps not since Selina doesn’t seem to deserve that.
Thanks so much for joining our discussion! I love talking about what I read and it has been great to hear what everyone else thinks about this beloved story!
A somewhat late comment: I think if Selina was really destitute and needed a home, it would be wrong from Miles to wash his hand of her/take Abby away and not look back (even though Selina was unsympathetic/self-centered). Another JA comparison: everyone agrees that Mr. Darcy ought to take care of Mrs. Bennet and her unmarried girls in the case of Mr. Bennet’s death, although it isn’t generally expected that he takes them to live with him at Pemberley. However, as I understand, both Abby and Selina had enough money to live independently as old maids but Selina liked to let Abby handle everything/arrange their life/serve her when she felt hypochondriac. She needed a companion which did not need to be her sister (as Miles said – I forget the woman’s name). Since Selina abused Abby’s love for her and manipulated her, Miles would be quite right not to allow Selina to live with them – to protect his wife. I suppose Miles wouldn’t have minded for Fanny to come to live with them as they mutually like each other and Fanny’s love for Abby is genuine.
I also think that “loss of respectability” is also used in a manipulative way. Even in Heyer’s Regency world, scandal and loss of respectability is not just a yes-or-no concept but a continuum, depending on many factors (e. g. the characters in question and who their immediate community was). I think Miles could (and would) have regained his respectability quite well as he took charge of his ruined family estate and began to rebuild it, married a respectable woman and settled down with her. He and Abby could laugh at the high sticklers who choose only to se his disreputable past. More cynically, his money would always ensure they would not be cut/ostracized too much.
Very true! Yes, I think Abby and Miles (like Darcy and Lizzy) would have enough happiness with each other to not care about any who would continue to ostracize them. And like you said, probably laugh at them too!
I wonder what you think about Abby and Fanny’s relationship. I wrote above in my other comment that Fanny seems to really love Abby (and, of course, Selina) but Abby’s feelings for Fanny are a little ambivalent: she loves Fanny deeply and tries to be a mature parental figure for her (and struggles with the teenager’s natural tendency to rebel and reject sensible parental advice) but I sensed there was an undercurrent which caused something of a mother hen aspect: Abby seems to need Fanny to love her, to accept her, to be in harmony with her. I suppose it’s because of her lack of emotional fulfilment /lack of being appreciated/loved. I do hope that as Miles will give her this, she will be able to bear Fanny’s leaving the “nest” and spread her wings.
Another question about Miles&Stacy: I have some difficulty in understanding the legal terms of their arrangement in the end. Do I have it right that Miles basically bought the debts and the mortgaged estate and the not mortgaged manor house from Stacy all for 15 000 pounds? in this case, Stacy actually comes off better than if his creditors catch up with him as then he would lose everything and even go to debtors’ prison – definitely he would not have 15 000 pounds to do with as he wanted. For a man with strength of character it would be a lump of capital enough to give a new start (not that I expect Stacy to do that). Was it completely self-serving of Miles? (In the sense that he got the whole of his family estate cheaper/simpler than if he would buy it up after the creditors would seize and sell/auction everything – although then he would not have to pay off the debt itself)